As a kid I was into communism and anarchism and whatnot. I grew up somewhat, but still hold a grudge against 'capitalism'. I got my DIY punk ethics mostly from reading Maximum Rock 'n Roll and started running a mailorder over 15 years ago. Making money was never the intent, contributing to the culture and meeting like-minded people was.

Lately I wonder if punk is anything more than a consumption pattern. Labels seem more and more like businesses. The internet has made most contact very impersonal. Market speak reigns supreme in most things I read about music. The number of supposed instant classics is ridiculous and the 'buy now or be sorry later' rethoric has always been very distasteful to me.

Explain to me why being a punk is not the same as being another consumer. Make my day!

    I think in general, young people these days tend to be obsessed with money far more than was the case 20+ years ago. Which is probably more about survival than capitalism/greed.

    I can't speak to the motives of others but I think anyone who gets into the punk label game with the mission of making money quickly moves onto something else, because there isn't much room for it. If I sell out of 500 copies of an LP its a profit of about $1500. THat's before you account for time, payment fees, shipping losses.... From the start of an LP to release is 3-4 months. If you figure in the time related to putting out a record, promoting, shipping a person would have to be sick in the head to do this for anything other than love. And that's if it sell out. Something which is becoming harder and harder to accomplish. And those that don't sell out, not only lose you money, but you have to lug around for the rest of your life. I don't blame a label for trying to use language like "buy before its gone" to get it over the finish line.

    I agree about things being impersonal, but also its hard when you are trying to juggle a real life, a real job, and running a distro/ label its hard to find time to personally connect with each person who writes you. I've been trying to take a different approach to the distro/ label this year that is slightly less labor intensive and allows me more time to appreciate every record that comes through the door, and the work involved in releasing a label. Do anything long enough without changing things up and it will become a grind.

    I like putting money in the pockets of people who make, put out, and write about punk music. I do think the key thing is that I'm probably more prone to viewing everyone's efforts in DIY punk world as an art practice instead of a "business" in the sense that as rich said, idk who's earnestly trying to make money. (fat mike? greg ginn?)

    I know when applied broadly that's some aw shucks sunday school thinking + there are definitely people trying to milk punks for profit. but I guess a lot of my spending decisions come down to intention. I think when you talk about people making things to contribute to the culture + meet like-minded people, I still see so much of that actively happening when I go to shows. I do a punk newsletter/pod/etc. because I love it and I definitely need a day job to make that make sense.

    but yeah idk, when a band puts out something unbelievable, who am I to not hand them the dollars I'm being handed for writing about the thing they made? my intention in handing money to someone in punk world is to support their efforts on a person-to-person scale. it's capitalism, but I guess it's deciding that if this is the system that’s being imposed onto all of us, my dollar’s best circulated into a community of artists I respect. we all feed the beast enough as it is.

      Lammie 100% with you lammie, and feel this very strongly -- i'm still an anarchist and big believer in DIY ethics, in no small part because finding punk world in that really stereotypical way really did save my life and gave me something to be a part of when i was super fucken lonely so i feel like, PASSIONATELY tied to punk doing its best to hold up the promise of DIY that made this thing so important to so many of us...

      to yr point tho, i guess these worlds have always had the embedded consumption culture / commodity fetishism aspect underlying them, but the DIY ethic was a bit stronger 10+ years ago. i reckon the difference is less to do with labels acting as for profit enterprises (like Randall said, very few are gettin rich off this shit), and more to do with the kind of scramble for attention the new internet is demanding of people to get yr stuff heard... so the cynical messaging that comes through is "BUY THIS ONE OF A KIND FUTURE COLLECTABLE BEFORE ITS TOO LATE"... like if you just put an unknown album up for sale, it's hard for it to collect steam on its own accord?

      that whole thing has replaced the more organic kinda thing where bands and labels build a reputation, put on shows, do favours for each other without this "financial realism" stuff which was more the norm and now the exception. there are still so many labels doing things as close to DIY as possible, but i agree that the tide has turned a lot... just can't quite see exactly where the lines have been drawn sometimes -- but long-gone are the days of a band being beaten up at a DIY space for taking Coca Cola money or some shit, for better or worse haha

      but yeah... i also agree with Senor Scratchy about the next gen being a lot more pro-money, but i think my frustrations with that is more that they also wanna have their cake and eat it too. like they wanna be able to say "i work in the lineage of all our favourite DIY labels etc" and want all the benefits of connection to the DIY ethic, while still getting the benefits of being a commercially-minded band. but that's another point i guess...

      but yes! my feeling is less that consumer culture and the desire for money is the culprit, and just moooore attention economy shit, and an overall self-involved climate where bands seem to be like, "why should i do something for anyone else if no one's doing anything for me?" i see a lot of impatience too, which i think is related here - bands who don't wanna open for anyone, bands who want to be appreciated/loved from the get go, bands who won't start a label or work on something new because they're waiting to release on a "popular" imprint that'll get more eyes on what theyre doing... and on some level, i agree, it's about money, but much much more so, there's an impatience to get eyes on the product.

      FWIW; i do feel the tide shifting back a bit, and i'm hearing a LOT more complaints about the state of play and discussions about how to repair it (this forum is one small example i think)... the more it gets talked about the better too, and i think ears are opening back up to the DIY ethic as the consumerism gets more egregious (but that may be wishful thinkin...)

          actually to all of this, not sure hard it is to get physical copies overseas, but my mate Cher Tan (ESP MAYHEM) wrote this great book called Peripathetic which touches on a lot of this stuff - https://unsw.press/books/peripathetic/ - i think the ebook version should be internationally distributed?? she spends a lot of time on this kind of topic, and the book is mostly focused on punk/subculture ideas, but touches on other things around identity, and work... i actually think it'd be right up yr alley @Lammie from what i known of yr posts here!

          P.S. i interviewed Cher here if yr interested in a brief primer of the stuff she looks at - https://mebarelyhuman.substack.com/p/q-and-a-004-are-you-being-critical

          Thanks so much for the elaborate replies.

          @Randall I definitely did not mean to say that labels such as yours are getting rich off the customer's back. I know that's not the case.

          see-saw.fun's evan minsker Yes, that has always been my take on the whole thing too; putting money in the pockets of the 'good guys'. Even if Fat Mike and Gregg Ginn are business men these days, I'd rather line their pockets than those of Jeff Bezos.

          BARELY HUMAN I'll check Cher Tan. Thanks for the heads up!

          Money
          I'm not saying that trying to make (a little) money is a bad thing. My 16 year old self used to scream along to 'Money Changes Everything' by Choking Victim - yes, I liked that band. Bite me..., but I like to think I outgrew that sentiment somewhat. Probably only partly so. It might me the Calvinist Dutch culture? Max Weber said the capitalist work ethic can be traced back to Protestantism, which would make where I live the historical capitalist heartland.

          Money is currency, something that makes exchange possible. It's not by nature bad. Making something costs money. Aiming to make that money back is more than fair.

          Supposedly Karl Marx said there is no escaping capitalism as in it is a principle, a system if you will. I'm trying hard to stay clear of academia and my (pseudo-)intellectual inclinations here. We all need to live and working a job is part of that for practically all of us. I consider that a given.

          Culture and consumption
          What I'm interested in is how capitalist culture influences basically everything, punk included. What I was trying to say was that I feel like the exchanges I have with people about punk are along 'capitalist lines'. They are of a consumer nature, mostly about buying stuff. This probably has a lot to do with doing the mailorder. I am literally buying and selling records.

          The basis on which purchases are made are very similar to those of random other consumer products. The argument that if you do not buy something, you will be sorry is a marketing trick you find all across the board. Same goes for the idea that the product sold is unique and excellent and therefor worth your money. The message is always that you need something either because it will make your life better if you buy it or worse if you don't.

          A lot of the discourse - can't help myself - around punk overlaps with that of capitalist culture these days. I feel like this was less so when I tuned in about 20 years ago, but I might be wrong. Either way spare me the reproach of getting old. A strange fact of the time we live in is that you're not supposed to say certain things might have changed for the worse. It seems to be a taboo.

          I am no saint nor do I have an alternative. I am a consumer too. I buy records and books. Probably too many. I got a new record cabinet in yesterday. Putting records on its shelves made me feel like buying stuff has become a habit. Same story with books. I buy them at a pace I can't possibly keep up with. It's not as dire a situation with records, because it takes less time and concentration to play a record than it does to read a book. Anyway, the experience brought about some self-loathing on my part and made me wonder how many records and books would be enough, a question I am sure other people on here have found themselves asking as well. Feel free to paste that Harvey Peekar panel into this thread.

          The internet
          The fact that a lot of communication happens throught the internet has created somewhat of a monoculture although it wasn't so bad before social media, I think. For most people younger than me - I am closing in on 40 - not having a smartphone and not being on social media is close to unthinkable.

          This taps into what BARELY HUMAN was saying. There's a constant war for our attention on the internet. For most people that means their phone screen - I still have a Nokia. Still I'm disgusted by my own screen habits: scrolling shorts on my laptop for empty entertainment and distractions, watching Youtube clips with clickbait titles that don't deliver. Supposedly I am the only person who clicks on clips that show the still of an attractive women showing cleavage. Nobody else is falling for that.

          The other day I heard a guy a few years younger than me talking about the content he got offered through online platforms as a representation of his being. He said he was doing a good job at keeping bad content shut out. Another kid some years younger than myself once told me he preferred personalized advertisement over random advertisemen on the internet, because it increased the chance that he got offered something of interest to him. That blew me away. When I said I preferred no advertisement at all, he replied that was not an option. When I worked with children with autism and disability we would offer them choices along the lines of: 'do you want to play with the blue or the red ball today?' We would call that freedom of choice. It is, but a very limited one.

          Punks be weird
          The fact that a band like the electric eels existed is life affirming for me. That does not mean I need their records. I am sure as hell buying them though. I remember Daniel Distort writing once that if someone says that Thirsty and Miserable is his favorite Black Flag tune, you get a pretty good impression of who you're dealing with. That's what I'm talking about, that it takes one to know one. I really like the idea of punk being for the outsiders, the freaks and the weirdos creating a world of their own, music of their own and art of their own. I miss that, but maybe I'm just out of the loop. Maybe I am a curmudgeon. I have no problem admitting the latter.

          I hope I made sense.

                  You make total sense Lammie, but I think you're being a bit hard on yourself too, I think your observation and feeling is completely valid. I totally understand that sense of self-loathing you're describing after a purchase (which I also feel at times), but I think what has always felt so good about dealing in records (buying, selling or making them) has been that part of it where the goods still have inherent value outside of money... and that the value is different on some level from mainstream culture.. like having a relationship with a band, buying their 7" and them buying yours feels differently somehow. (MUCH different to the kids paying $70 for their second Charlie XCX LP for the downloadable bonus content even though they don't own a turntable but I digress). Like sure, it's still trading money tokens around, and a commodity is a commodity no matter how Xerox-affected the cover art is, but when the thing works, it's a connection between band, listener, community, etc which Top 40 fans for example, just can't stake a claim to. Buying and selling punk/DIY records and paying or accepting money to do so is a contradiction on some level, I can definitely see that, but it depends on what you compare it to I think...

                  I think what you're describing is really interesting though, this feeling of jadedness around participating in consumer culture while the DIY ethic seems to be slipping off to the side of punk practice to some extent. I'm also closing in on 40, which I think gives us interesting perspective, and some of the new waves aren't really making sense, which brings on this kinda mournfulness maybe? Wasn't that long ago that a band I was in found out the cost price of our tapes were $8, but couldn't justify charging any more than $6, so we just sold them at a loss because that felt right. That notion feels so alien to me now!

                  The consumer culture thing you're talking about I feel is really heightened by inflation / cost of living on some level too (feels so fucked up seeing some of the prices for new records now, like I genuinely can't afford to buy a new LP if it wasn't for working at a record store that gives me a discount)... and that heightened sense of money bashes up against the fact that the next gen are much less critical about the idea of making money, which in and of itself isn't a fucken crime, but IMO, the accepted part of DIY/punk practice is that most of the people in this realm are doing things for nothing, or to cover costs, or to earn very little, which means that being a part of this realm means ALSO not using people as stepping stones to take the pay cheque. And when the next gen starts giving up on some of the unwritten rules, the old heads start saying "well, gotta keep up with the times", and all of a sudden you see the whole thing slipping... then it's Taco Bell using the 'we support artists' rhetoric to get the cultural capital of a hot hardcore band in their ads. And no one's supposed to blink.

                  I dunno if I'm making any sense here either, but I'm really interested in what you're saying, and I'm finding it hard to communicate how I agree so much with it haha (a few bourbon's deep though, that can't be helpin). Your point about saying thing have changed for the worse being taboo is really interesting - I've definitely noticed that in the past few years - but there's gotta be canaries in the coal mine. I'm trying to fixate more on the people who are doing it right than all the rest of the shite, but... maybe middle age cusping is just glorious complaint (time to bump the old man yells at cloud thread).

                  Lammie Hey Lammie,
                  For sure didn't take it as a personal attack, although I do see a few things in there that could apply to me. I appreciate this conversation though. I think like anything in this modern landscape its complicated as are my views on it so if I contradict myself I'm not oblivious to it.

                  I don't really think the punk record game is more or less capitalistic than it has been in the past. I remember taking part in/ reading similar conversations on messageboards in the early 2000s. People complaining about labels manufacturing scarcity by pressing insanely small numbers of records that could easily sell twice as much to inflate resale value and ensure future releases immediately sell out. I also remember the days of having to limit customers to single copies of certain releases to stave off speculators. I haven't had to do that in a long time, but I think that is mainly due to the fact that there is less interest in buying physical media. I think you would have a hard time arguing that there is any other reason for limited pressings of colored vinyl than to create hype and sell through records faster (buy now....). I also don't think there is anything inherently wrong with this or trying to get a release you care about into more people's hands.

                  As has been mentioned elsewhere I do think money resides a bit more upfront in people's minds, but that is mainly due to the fact that we live an increasingly expensive world where the money only seems to flow in one direction. The days of local bands playing for free so the touring band gets more money seems to be in the rearview mirror. I have more bands who view me more as a physical manufacturer than a partner in their release, and view a label with skepticism. Some of that skepticism is due to other labels not treating bands fairly/ ripping them off, some if it is due to just like its harder to make ends meet as a record label its also harder as a band. Things are complicated, difficult, disheartening and its important to remember everyone is just trying to survive.

                  The internet and social media is the absolute pits. Its a giant marketplace with millions of people trying to grab your attention, sell you stuff, and manipulate your thoughts. Its the reason I wanted to create this space so people could discuss music, art, movies... away from all the noise and hopefully labels could turn a few people onto their releases. It's also why I'm currently working on a physical magazine with a bunch of other people who post on here. This is an important conversation to have and thanks for bringing it up.

                    Lammie Supposedly I am the only person who clicks on clips that show the still of an attractive women showing cleavage. Nobody else is falling for that.

                    I'm guilty of falling for that as well friend. Apparently that makes me a creep in some eyes!